QSR1836/4/5/15

Depositions and examination - Isaac Norman

13 August 1836

From: 1836 To: 1836

Thomas Snitch, constable of St Neots – last Thursday Anthony Reeves called him into his house to know what should be done with a person who was there with plenty of money which he did not think he had come by honestly. He took the person upstairs and told Reeves to take care of him. He went to Mr Standly to find out what to do with him. Mr Standly told him to see what money the man had about him and to bring him to Mr Day’s office. He took away 14 ½ sovereigns, 2 crown pieces, a half crown and 3 shillings in money and then took Norman to Mr Day’s office. Mr Standly ordered him to keep the money and a watch found on Norman and remanded him for this examination. He heard Norman say his name was White. When he came before Mr Standly he said at once his name was Norman and that his father was a carpenter who lived at Willington. Norman said he had left his father on the Sunday morning and his father had given him £1 5s 2d. He saw Isaac Norman counting his money into a bag with William Sperry holding it. Sperry gave him the bag back again. James Franklin, constable of St Neots – he heard yesterday that Norman was in the cage at St Neots on suspicion of having committed a felony. When he went into the cage Norman’s father was with him. After he had been in the cage some little time Norman’s father went out, and Norman said he would find it more than what he had told him, that the money was stolen and he obtained it sawing a piece out of the box. He is a cabinet maker and is well acquainted with carpenter’s work. [Looks at the box and the hole made in it] It seems to him the pieces were taken out by boring a hole at the corner then putting in a small saw, sawing it across one and then forcing it into the box with some instrument. The hole is quite large enough for a man’s hand and arm to get in and the small box can be easily taken out and put in again. He and Snitch went over to Willington yesterday in consequence of what Norman had said to make enquiries and to learn what they could of the circumstances of the case. They went to Mrs Day’s and she was at home. William Nottingham, one of the stewards of the society went with them. Nottingham knew where the box was. They all went upstairs and looked under the bed and pulled out the box. They saw that a piece had been broken out of the box. They brought the box downstairs and opened it with the key. They saw inside a smaller box (now produced) which they opened. Tere was some silver in it and some loose silver on the bottom of the large box, £1 3s 6d altogether. The account book produced and the two pieces where the hole had been made were in the box. There was also a bag of marbles in the box with marks of sawdust on it. [Cross examined by Norman who said “Were not the words I used to you ‘worser perhaps than father may imagine. The money was stolen?’” or words to that effect] The place sawn out of the box was nearly 6 inches long. When they opened the box the things were not laid in but appeared to have been put in by somebody in a hurry. He looked about Mr Day’s house to see how the people had got in. The lead round one of the panes of glass in the windows appeared loose as if the pane had been taken out and put in again. The casement was close by and a person might have put his hand through and opened the casement. Susan Day of Willington – her husband is a labourer. She has known Norman for more than 20 years. He is a carpenter and almost always works with his father. There is a benefit club held at her husband’s house in Willington called the Amicable Society for which her husband John Day is clerk. The meetings are held every quarter. The box (produced, with 3 locks) is kept at their house. Her husband keeps one of the three keys and the others are kept by the 2 stewards. The box is kept in her bedroom under the bed. When there are any sick persons to receive money the box is brought down into the house and the stewards and her husband produced their keys, open the box and what money is wanted is taken out and given to the sick members. The box is then locked up and put back under the bed. The box was brought down last Saturday morning and taken up again to her bedroom. The bottom of the box was whole. There was a linen Holland bag in the box with sovereigns in it. Last night the box was not in the same place under her bed – it had moved about a foot. Mr Snitch took it out and she saw a large hole in the corner, apparently sawn out. On Wednesday (or possibly Tuesday) she left her house about 4 o’clock, locked up the doors and the gate to the street. The windows were all fastened. About 8 o’clock she was going home and saw Norman cross the road in the direction from her house to his father’s. Edmund Basset was on Norman’s other side. Norman, his father and brother are members of the society. Isaac Norman has been steward and gave up about 12 months ago. When Norman was steward he used to come to her house and take out the money for the poor. He has seen them take the box upstairs and bring it down again, and knew the club’s money was kept in that box. The smaller box was put into the larger one on Saturday morning. The bag with the gold and silver was put into it before it was put into the larger box. The large box also held the book for the Society. She left home about 4am on Thursday morning. She fastened the doors and returned about 10.30 and found the doors locked. Norman’s father lives about ¼ mile from her. When she came home on Wednesday or Tuesday, whichever it was, the window was shut. At dinner time on Thursday she found eh fastening of the window as undone. William Nottingham of Willington – he is a shoemaker living at Willington and has known Norman for the last 5 years. He is now one of the stewards of the Amicable Society and Norman is one of the members. On Saturday he and Mrs Day were present when the box was brought down. James Sale the other steward was in his house and left his key with Mrs Day. The box was bought down, 20s in silver was taken out. On 27 June there was £25 4s in the box, partly in sovereigns and partly in silver. There has been no more put in and £3 has been drawn out for the use of the Society. There should have been £22 4s in the box. He went with the constables Franklin and Snitch yesterday to Mrs Day’s house. They went upstairs and found the hole in the box and £1 3s 6d in silver left. Nobody has had his key since he was appointed steward on 27 June. Norman is a carpenter by trade and works with his father who is also a carpenter. He saw Norman on Monday and Tuesday at Willington , and between 9 and 10am on Tuesday he saw Norman near his father’s gateway. Norman’s father’s house is about ¼ mile from Day’s. The gold was in the box on Saturday morning in a linen Holland bag. Anthony Reeve of St Neots – he keeps the Bull at St Neots. Last Thursday between 9 and 10am he was called into the bar to take care of a person who was throwing about his money. He asked the man to leave the house which he would not do. He saw Snitch one of he constables and called him in to know what he ought to do. He and Snitch took the man upstairs. Norman asked what he was detained for and told Snitch he would give him a sovereign to let him go. Snitch said he would not. After a little while he desired Snitch to keep him in custody as he suspected he had not come properly by the property he had about him. Snitch gave him in charge to him while he went to ask Mr Standly what should be done. Snitch returned and asked Norman to give up the money. Norman produced it and it was counted out. There was 14 sovereigns and a half, 2 crown pieces, 3 shillings and one half crown, £15 5s 6d altogether. Norman also had a silver watch bought for 4 sovereigns. Norman had spent some money in his house before he took charge of him and his money. Norman said his name was White and he came from Kempston. Several persons were there who lived on the neighbourhood of Kempston and none knew him. Norman said it was his own money. When Norman was before Mr Standly he said his father’s name was Norman and that he had left his house at Willington on Sunday morning and had been all that time coming to St Neots, and that he had been at several public houses on his way. Mr Standly ordered Snitch to take him to the cage and desired him to go to Willington to enquire after his father and to enquire at the different places Norman said he had been. He found Norman’s father and told him his son was in custody and wished him to come over to St Neots. Snitch, his father, Isaac Norman and he were before Mr Standly yesterday. Norman said he had been to Mr Clayton’s of Cople between 5 and 6am on Thursday and had drawn of him £19 17s 6d which Clayton owed his father on his father’s account and that was part of the money found on him. Mr Standly desired him to be remanded so that enquiries could be made of Clayton whether he had paid such money to Isaac Norman.

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Norman, Isaac,
Snitch, Thomas,
Reeves, Anthony,
Sperry, William,
Day, Susan,
Day, John,
Basset, Edmund,
Nottingham, William,
Sale, James

St Neots, WILLINGTON, stealing, money, constable, carpenter, cabinet maker, friendly societies