Z1205/242

Male. Gipsy Romany head of family. b.01.07.1947 Side A (00 mins)Born in Herefordshire in a horse-drawn caravan. Travelled by caravan pulled by horses. Police more accommodating in let them stay by the side of the road for longer than they do now. Walked alongside the caravan with his family. His mother & father made clothes pegs in the evening to be sold from house to house the day after. Sometimes went to school but did not learn to read or write. (5 mins)Went to school only when he was 11-12 years old, by then all other children were much more advanced than him. He was given clay to play with. Was bullied a lot at school. He liked to do sums and was good at that. He was in different schools because they were on the move all he time. (10 mins)He is a true gypsy and does not want to be confused with New Age Travellers. A gypsy code of conduct does not permit a Gypsy to steal from another gypsy. Gypsies get blamed if there has been a theft in a village. Language, (Romany) and the way of behaving makes it easy for informant to identify his own kind. He learned Romany from his family, only the spoken words not the written. Amongst themselves they do speak English also. (15 mins)Pegs used to be made in the winter from hazelwood, in the summer from willow. Described how to make pegs. His father and mother thought him, they had distinct tasks allocated by gender. They used to make their living out of the sale of the pegs, or flowers made from elder wood. Gradually they started to do different jobs. His dad started to collect scrap metal, so he helped him. (20 mins)When shops started to sell pegs made from plastic, their pegs became difficult to sell. At age 9-10 his father bought his first motor, but the extra expenses of petrol and mechanics became too much, so he went back to horse power. (25 mins)They had a good strong 14 hand horse ,a half-bred Shire, used also to work on the land. Remembers helping his dad plant sugar beet with a horse, on a farm in Herefordshire. Never stayed too long in one place, the urge to move ever present. Compares the need to stay put for long time as being in prison. He cannot explain the urge to up and go travelling. Police behaviour has changed over the years because when he was young they were allowed to stay by the side of the road as long as they needed to complete a seasonal job. Now they cannot stop by the road. Mentioned section 61-62. Persecution has always been there, but has changed in the way it is delivered. Before it was verbal abuse now it's law enforcement. ( 30 mins) Recognises the importance of education especially for young people, unable to get a job. The working and living skills that used to be handed down from generation to generation are no longer sufficient for survival. End of Side A Side B (00 mins)His wife is poorly and they need to stay put for the winter. In the spring his children will be moving in order to get a job. But even if they were millionaires they still would move. He tried to explain the need to move as something that you are born with. Being born on the road from generation to generation means this need to move is in the blood. He would not like to live in a house, preferring to live in a tent by the woods. (05 mins)There was no regular pattern about when to move or who to move with. Sometime there would be 5-6 caravans on the move, other times they would travel on their own, or with close family and sometimes with other gypsies they'd just meet on the way. He remembers large gypsy families. There were 4 children in his father's family. He is one of eight. No pattern in who decided when to leave, who was in front, or where they were going. Some would ride on the wagon some would walk. The decision to move could be immediate or could be planned a week in advance. Cooking used to be done on fire. Water came from springs, he knew of many such places to find water. This is no longer possible now, due to chemicals on the land. Now water has to came out of the tap. (10 mins)If planned the move took place before dawn. In a good day 10 -12 miles cold be achieved. When they stopped provision had to be made first for the horse, then for people. Lots of village people would come to feed the horses. Farmers would provide hay especially when there was snow. Today with motors, moving is much faster; a 100 miles could be done in a day. He experienced poverty and hunger, sometimes it was hard for his mother to provide food for the children. His parents did not know about Social Security. (15 mins)Life was better then. Slower. Food was better and people too.. Food was naturally grown (organically) with no addition of chemicals, it tasted much better. His grand parents and parents would go begging for food when there was a need.. Remembers the taste of cured bacon direct from the farmers. They never cured pig, could not afford it. A hedgehog was called a Gipsy Pig and was eaten cooked on the fire. Now it's a protected species but some gypsies still eat it. Rabbit saved a lot of people from starvation. His wife still makes rabbit stew. (20 mins)Natural health remedies used to be known by his grand mother, she knew of herbs and plants; doctors were not consulted. He knows of a leaf which is better that any ointment still used to heal wounds. The marshmallows plant used to be boiled and spread on horse wounds. It would heal very quickly. Men & women knew about health remedies, but women used them more. His granny used to make elderberry flower tea as a cure against flu. His father called a midwife when he was due to be born because they were on their own, but if grand parents had been there she would not have been called. His children go to the doctor now when not well, but he still teaches them which plants are to be used in time of need. (25 mins)There was prejudice against doctors in the olden days. It was felt that if they went to the doctor they would die. He feels he learned a lot about the outside world from other non-gypsy children. Because he was unable to read, he is able to memorise quite a lot especially about road signs and directions. When he was growing up, he did not feel envious of village children even if they had more than him. Felt that they were trapped by having to going to school and always stay in the same village. Would not change his life for theirs. They were envious of him, especially because he did not have to go to school every day. End of Side B Side A (00 mins)His mother had the gift of predicting the future. While he was growing up, she would predict something to somebody on their travels, when they would go back a year later her prediction had come true, they would be met by the same people ready to tell their experience. Some gypsies have the gift to predict, some others have the power to put curses on to others. (05 mins)Sometimes it was the positive thinking of the Gypsy that made the prediction happen. This no longer happens, the gift to predict the future died with the old Gypsy. But people still believe especially in the curse of the Gypsy. He recognises that the reputation of this power could just be also a way to protect gypsies. Even now in winter they do sit by the fire outside and tell stories of places they have been. (10 mins)He remembers stories his grandfather used to tell him, usually about horses and their life of travel. When he travels occasionally he has a feeling that he knows a lot of details of the places he is going to visit even when he has never been there before. And when he gets there the details are all true. He thinks he has inherited memories from his ancestors - past generations of gypsies. He uses these memories to take decisions on how to behave when faced with a new situation. (15 mins)Talks about his father. Before he died in was in hospital for 18 days.. There were 8 days for his funeral, and in all that time all the family had to be there. As his father got older he slowed down and stayed for a long time in a place, people got to know him and respected him. Shops were closed as mark of respect on his funeral. All the children had some object from their father, the rest got burned with his caravan. He was buried with an old golden key and his cap. (20 mins)Usually when a gypsy of any age dies, if did own a caravan it would be burned with all his belonging. He lives now on the same site, has been there for the last two and half years with his family. They own the site, but the Council refuse to give planning permission for three caravans to be based there. The land is not agricultural land, it is freehold. He has had a Court Order to clear the land within days. His wife is very poorly and he has had another date from the Court when it will be decided if they can stay on the site or not. (25 mins)He has hired a lawyer and a barrister to represent him in court. He and his wife feel they are slowing down and need to be at the same place for medical reasons, but they are not allowed to be. They like the place they have bought and want to pass their last years there. They do not want to go to live in a house. They want to be in the countryside where they are in their element. He has been manhandled and arrested over this but he still will not give up (30 mins) End of side A Side B (00 mins)Feels that gypsies have been persecute all through their life, this is one of the worst case of persecution. In the past they were accepted for the way they were, now the laws are made up and enforced to change them, as if their way of life is no longer acceptable by Society. The fight to stay on this bought land is costing him dearly. Hiring a barrister to speak in the High Court costs him £1.000 per day. (05 mins)The right to live on his own land has been denied to him and his family even when he has proved that people in the area have no objection about gypsies living in the area. A risk assessment was been carried out by Mr Burrows an engineer at a cost of £8.000, which stated that there is no risk of flooding. But still the application to stay was turned down. This decision angered one counsellor in particular who threw all his papers on the floor in Court and accused the prosecutor of wrong doing and consequently resigned. He sees the future as being very tough, in line with his past. He is hoping that his children and grandchildren will be able to stay on the land he has bought and attend regular school, get an education and have a better prospect for life in the future. (10 mins) He feels that his great grand children will not be able to survive as gypsies living in the traditional way of life. The world has changed so much. Life is now so much faster than it was when he was growing up and a lot of new influences are around for young people, e.g. drugs. He has 10 children none of them drink, smoke or take drugs, but he knows of families of travelling people where these bad habits do go on. (15 mins)He likes to live in this area and some local people have accepted their presence and occasionally they go to gypsies to ask for favours. An example of this is a lady offering a big reward to help to find her two stolen dogs. He searched for a long time and finally found them, but did not take her money because he felt that there should be trust towards the Gypsy, on the part of local people. For too long the Gypsy has had a bad reputation as thieves. Original Interview 110 mins

9 September 2003

From: 1945 To: 2003

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Romany, Gipsies, caravan parks, horses, police, school teachers, stealing animals, theft, LANGUAGE, trees, gender issues, social services, class issues, race issues, metal merchant, agricultural land, farm worker, prison, parks, general law, EDUCATION, health, HOUSING, FIRE, POVERTY, Hanger, food, hedgehogs, rabbits, midwives, MIGRATION, doctor, DEATH, funerals, planners, High Court of Justice, barrister, floods, woodcarvers, Herefordshire